I don't understand this. When Donny posts about keyboards he gets a flood of replies. This time he posted a fine tutorial on how to improve your playing skills (arpeggios), and.....it gets ignored....it flops.

Are my to believe that no matter WHO posts a "tutorial," ...nobody is interested in getting better? Not better keyboards. Better playing.

piano arpeggio tutorial

Mark, most people are not where you are, John C.

I can't agree but I have heard people say
"arranger keyboard playing is a lazy mans game"?...
most don't use 88 keys but that doesn't mean the arpeggio technic cannot be used on 61 or 76 keys also to embellish your playing style

Here's why, Mark. Most of the active members here are 65+ years old. They are NOT interested in 'learning to play better', they are more interested in SOUNDING BETTER with the playing level they're currently in. That's why many (but not all) are playing arranger keyboards in the first place. In other words, let the improvements come from the keyboard, not their improved playing technique. John C. said it correctly, "Mark, most people are not where you are, John C.". Not to tick you off Mark, but we can't expect everyone to share our musical goals and aspirations. Although I think it's admirable to try to improve oneself, musically and every other way, 'til the day we die, some of us, at a certain age, are satisfied with the level we've reached in certain specialized areas (like playing keyboards) and would rather devote that time to other priorities (like fishing, golf, and watching football ). And that's okay, too.

As far as arpeggio's go, I've never had a problem going up, it's going down that is hard for me (this could be a problem when my time comes ). I agree with you that it would be nice if the forum had more discussions about music itself but on this forum, to paraphrase a popular song, 'it's all about the gear'. Also, ol' farts like to talk about their health problems and reminisce about days gone by. Welcome to the 'golden years'.

chas

Chas not only on Piano but if you watch Hammond players
like Tony Monaco, Joey D, etc, do fast runs up and down makes me drool....
I would assume that takes the same amount of practice
and exercises to be successful and a great keybed also..

I don't drool over 'fast runs' as such. I admire the player's technique but as far as I'm concerned, 'fast runs' are the domain of the piano player. Also, fast runs just for the sake of fast runs isn't necessarily musical. Like any other playing technique, you use what the song calls for. Some of the greatest and most memorable jazz organ performances don't feature 'fast runs', just tons of feelings and emotions. If you're trying to impress someone with your pianistic skills, then arpeggios are great, but it is only one of a gazillion 'tools' one can employ to capture the essence of a song.

chas

Chas you are right in being able to do Runs effortlessly
certainly is impressive and is an essential tool for the player when needed. A great keybed is also needed.

Title of the link says it, Piano Arpeggios. I think most Arranger players are happy holding a chord in the LH and doing simple melodies or fills with the RH. You don't use many Arrpeggios on organ either. They lend themselves best to a sustained sound which an organ can't do.
As for runs, its practicing scales and arpeggios of all kinds in all keys and then using that as a foundation for your own runs. I still do dimishied arrpeggios for a good finger strech and warmup on piano. I like Tony monaco better that Joed D for the simple reason he doesn't just take off with super fast runs which I think can take away from the song. Some are OK but Joey goes ballistic. I was just listening to him the other day and thought the same thing. Because you can doen't mean you should and sometimes a lot is too much.

Do you learn arpeggios and scale just to play them?
Are the good for fill ins?

Yes, but the important part is neither. Practicing both the Arps and scales gives you a command of the instrument – like lifting weight helps whatever.

I was a fair guitar player, hmmm, maybe just above fair. (smile)
When my guitar teacher gave me arpeggios and scales to practice, I was all over the guitar – comfortable in any position.

The speed of a note in my head to the note on the guitar was many times faster. In short I became a better guitar player.

When I went to a keyboard, I used the same principles; my learning time was cut in half.

Just saying, John C

When I entered the market to sell securities, I took public speaking and two sales courses. Did they improve the numbers on my commission check? I was the leading sales rep. in a group of 32 seasoned sales men,
for 1 ½ years.

John C.

I am one that does want to learn to play better and yes I am over 65...count me in.

Just remembered, one of mt Thomas organs, the Celebrity Royale had 2 61 not keybeds, a 32 note radial arced pedal board AND in between the keybeds...a Arpeggio/Glissando strip...worked superb. All you had to do is hold a chord and run your thumb across the bar (it had 61 little rollers) OR just flip the switch and run your thumb across for full Gliss.
You could change chords on the fly, use sustain pedal etc.

You could vary the speed, go slow/fast it was so cool!

Yes me too. I want both, learn to play better and to sound better.

Unfortunately don’t have the luxury of time to spend a couple of hours a day on scales and exercises like I did 20 to 30 years ago.

After the heartache of having to sell my pianos 20 years ago, I gave up playing except for learning the occasional arranger song to audition the styles I liked creating on my keyboards . That was now my hobby instead of playing.

Actually learning more from my current online piano course than I ever did in the years I actually played. Took some lessons when I first started learning, learnt to read what was on the paper in front of me , nothing more. Doggedly had to learn a piece of music ,note for note.
With keyboards I had to at least learn what a chord was .
Current course has taught me about chord progressions, how the chords relate to scales, how to get the most out of the practice time I have, and better still how to play some basic patterns with left hand, without have the notes written down in front of me.
Not 100% reliant on reading.

A lot of my prior piano music, didn’t even have chord symbols, how much easier to learn the left hand on a piece of sheet music , be it arpeggios or chords when there’s a chord symbol above.

Wish the type of lessons available online nowadays, had been available 30 /40 years ago. Haha

P.s Lee , how are you going with your Somewhere in Time, did you find a style, I’m working on one. Take me time to learn the piano version, so thought I’d learn keyboard version first. Haha

Chords are the foundation of a song. You can fake and find a melody, but chords need to be understood. Studying chords, chord progressions and chord extensions add color to a song. This does not apply to most of the 50’s and rock music, and some country songs. It is very effective with Ballads, Jazz, Swing, Latin, and more.

Rock improvising is mostly based on scales. All other improvising is based on scales and chords. All that I am saying is NOT gospel, only my opinion.

Idea #1: Scales are numbered 1 to 8 --
I II III IV V VI VII VIII

I is C -- II is D -- III is E – right up to VIII which is C again.
The strongest movement/progression in music is V to I G to C, it becomes stronger when you use a V7 G7 instead if V G chord. The 7th is a chord that wants to move, you can feel it. Try ending a song on a G7 chord.

A substitution for a V7 chord is IIn7 V7 – Dm7 G7, both leading to the C chord.

That’s a lot of stuff, but I need it to go to the next step. What you have to do is substitute Dm7 G7 for a G7 chord. IIm7 G7. Instead of playing G7 for 4 beats, you play 2 beats of Dm7, and 2 beats of G7. Playing the two chords give you movement. Repeat this whenever you see a 7th chord.

Example: For C7 play Gm7 C7 --- for F7 play Cm7 F7.
I have made this as simple as can so all will understand –
the next post will be short. Please questions.

John C.

Remember some people use the one finger chord method makes conversions difficult...
Others just dont care, ...
you never stop learning till you die....

Carry on

If it's a blues inthe key of G it will work ...

Good stuff, John ...

Thanks John , got it.

3 months ago I wouldn’t have had a clue what you were talking about.

What amazed me also, the amount of songs that can be played with something as simple as 4 chords.

One of the paks as part of the course is 500 songs in 5 days.
She teaches the 4 chords, how they’re created so that the can be transposed. Each of the 5 days one learns new things. Basic rhythm, adding fill ins to trick them up, last day how to add melody, basically by ear..
All one gets is 500 songs , chords and lyrics. Not a single written note in sight.
Never thought I’d be able to do it, as I was so obsessed with reading notes.

Goes to show , never too old to learn. ( can teach an old dog new tricks ,haha)

Sorry, I forgot about One Finger Chords. I play full chords with my right hand; it guides everything I do. This what I know about full left-hand chords – once you learned them, they come automatically, I think of the name of the chord and my hand just goes there. Without looking. They help take the boredom from the style.

When I hold a C7 chord, C E G Bb with my left hand, my right hand knows what notes to impro on.

Tony ya got me, you’re right G7.
John C.

Interesting info and stuff I use all time John. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

Next step in chord progressions
The flat two, seventh chord. IIb7
C Major scale, 2nd note D down ½ tone Db add a 7th = IIb7
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The V7- I progression (G7- C) becomes
IIm7- V7 - I progression. Dm7 G7 C

Add the IIb7 (Db7) -- IIm7 – V7 – IIb7 – I Dm7 – G7 – Db7 – C You can also drop the G7 --- IIm7 – IIIb7 – C
Good for endings and intro, and a lot more.

ADDING EXTENTIONS TO A MAJOR CHORD.

C major scale
C D E F G A B C D E F G
Major is built with thirds—C to E -- E to G
I III V of the C major scale

C6- CEGA Cmaj7th- CEGB Cmaj9th- CEGBD
Cmaj11th – CEGADF Cmaj13th – CEGADFA Careful with the Cmaj11th

And no, you do not add all the notes to your C major chord, just the ones that sound good to you.

Stay with me, this is going to get very interesting
John C.

Thank you John.

Keep it coming, John

John....good for you trying to re-introduce "music lingo" back to the group.

Thought I'd add a supplement...the Ab7 before a G7 chord (chromatic progression).

G7 to C in 4/4 time...Ab7 for 2 beats - G7 for 2 beats - to C the root

Example: Ab7/9 chord: from bottom note Gb-Bb-C-Eb
G79/13 chord: from bottom note F-A-B-E
to C6/9 (root) from bottom note C-G-A-D

Keep your posts going!!!

Mark, thanks for joining in, all ideas are very welcome. For now, let’s not use the term chromatic when going from Ab7 to G7. Let’s call it a bII7 to a I , it will help in as we move through.

Many songs follow the A B A rule; a melody is played, then it moves to something different (melody) and then it goes back to the original melody. Hence A B A
The B part normally travels to the IV of the scale.
Key of Cmajor; C = I F = IV.

C to F --- that move can be made stronger if you use C7 to F. Bb, is the 7th of the C chord. Although you are in the key of Cmajor, C to F puts you in the key of Fmajor, where all the B notes are now Bb notes. When this happens F is I and C7 is V7 (scale of Fmajor)

Now let’s used what we learned: C7 to F can be:
Gm7 – C7 – F or, Gm7 – C7 – F or, Gm7 – Gb7 – F or, C7 – Gb7 – F

When you leave the B part (key of Fmajor) it may be possible to use the same group of chords, but in the key of Cmajor.

It’s gonna get even better, John C.

I THINK I HAVE MADE A MAJOR ERROR! Everything I have written is for the left hand, as applied to an arranger keyboard. Not in piano mode, or two finger chords.

My thought is to control everything with the left hand, right hand follows. The left hand is part of the orchestra (Accomp.)
The right hand adds the colors that you feel.

John C.
PS, I am going to record some of what I posted -- soon.

This explanation by Chas should be right up there in the top echelons with Tolstoy's War and Peace.

NOW...FINALLY...the penny dropped. Chas has his finger on the pulse much more clearly than I do.

Yes, John is right. I'm at a different place. But only because this is what I do full time. I have to keep working toward getting better both at music AND at my presentation and interaction with an audience.

"but we can't expect everyone to share our musical goals and aspirations"

So...I never expected people to follow my agenda. Just mistakenly thought everyone was dedicated to improving their playing in some way. To be honest, as much as I like music, listening to it and playing it, these days I, more and more, need to get away from it. When I'm driving, I NEVER listen to music....only talk show and some news. In short, I have to say I envy those who don't go overboard with it like I often do.

I think I shall now do less (but not NONE) "getting better posts." Give myself a break in the process.

Mark

I think I'd like to emphasis that if you don't mind, Bill

Rikki...you're my kind of a person. Somewhere in Time!!! One of my all time favorites. It's still sitting on my piano waiting to be learned. I have the sheet music for it here if you need it. It was on Turner Classic Movies last week. I recorded it and am going to watch it again for about the umpteenth time. The acting was a tiny bit weak and unconvincing but the Rachmaninoff music you never tire of hearing. And the message that was sent to viewers really hit home for a lot of us active and latent "romancers." It pains me to say it, but as the film intensifies toward the end, I can't keep myself from crying. It was the ultimate fairy tale. They need to put that movie in a time capsule to be opened 100 years from now when love and romance won't exist anymore.

Rikki, you mentioned in a couple of places that you'd like to get batter at playing the piano.

I read John's post also with his simplified and effective teaching methods.

This is a good time for me to say to you (and others) what I've been meaning to say for a while now. Learning becomes a heck of a lot easier when you find the right person to teach you. Looking at John's explanation of chords, etc tells me he's been "around the block" a few times as a teacher. He knows what he's talking about and presents the (necessary) info in a non-pressure, easy to follow manner.

Equally as important: In learning the piano, and in just about anything you do, it is difficult ONLY IF YOU VIEW IT AS DIFFICULT. If see see an endeavor as EASY then the mind works on that too and it becomes EASY and learning time is cut in half.

I only realized this in the last few years. It's power of the mind principle at it's best. Norman Vincent Peale wrote about it in an all-time best seller: The Power of Positive Thinking.


Wish I knew all this stuff when I was a dumb kid!

Thank YOU for your welcome into the conversation, but I'm giving up on introducing "learning" and "playing" ideas. Just not enough time.

But I'd be happy to see you on the same journey. Your presentation is so well thought out, anyone here who stops to listen to you will benefit.

Wow, we are both readers of Norman Vincent Peale.
Mark, Chas thought about older people’s desire to learn is true, but not in all cases. I am 88 and I can’t wait to learn something new. But nobody said I was normal.

My belief: If you have never seen or tasted chocolate ice cream, and someone asks you a question about chocolate ice cream, you have no idea what he is talking about.

So I must record a song with the written chords, and recorded again with chord extensions and substitution.
John C.

Hi Mark,
Haven’t seen the movie in years unfortunately, love it too. The music was was beautiful.

Lee found this utube clip a few weeks ago, really nice version.
[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/YkKue_MEnkk[/video]

I actually have the sheet music for it , thank you. Kind of went overboard . Haha
Keyboard version ( my current project)
easy play piano ( too bland)
and piano solo ( which has all those beautiful L/H. Arpeggios ) future project, even if I have to dumb it down a bit. Haha

Thanks Mark, I ‘ll have a look at the video clip in the morning.

I’m going to work my way thru John’s chords also. Thank you John.

I'm glad I reminded myself of Peale's world-famous book. I think I'm going to start reading it again via the video clip. A sure antidote for today's ever challenging world!



Yes, we share that trait. I have this huge desire to know more information than Google does even and adventurous enough that I want to do part 2 of "Around the World in 80 Days" with myself as the star. I still find everything in the world to be fascinating...life to be a rose revealing more of itself with each pull of each petal!



That says it all in one sentence. I understand totally what you are saying here. I even agree with your punctuation marks!

Mark wrote: I still find everything in the world to be fascinating...life to be a rose revealing more of itself with each pull of each petal!


That is the secret of an interesting happy life. I get bored when there is no more to learn on a subject. Each new journey has so much to add. Dave is a good example; he keeps coming up with a new ideas.

Keyboards do add to the journey, but there is more.
Wow, kinda deep, but it is positive, John C.